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Electronic ignition issue

btceng

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May 31, 2014
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Sylvania, GA
I'm new to the site but was hoping to find some help with an issue that I'm experiencing with my 1981 D150. I am converting the original lean burn system to electronic ignition. First, I should explain that the lean burn was removed years ago but was replaced by a points system and Holley 1945. This is a slant 6 auto. I got the electronic distributor installed and the ECU but now the starter is staying engaged while cranked. I feel like the "start 12v" wire is backfeeding to the ignition switch, but I've checked the wiring diagrams and it all looks right to me. If I disconnect the wire from the start position it doesn't seem to have the issue. I made the connection to the ignition wire under the steering column.

Any ideas?

BTW, it does crank and run otherwise.

Thanks,
John
 
If anyone can guide me threw attaching files Guaranteed Parts Inc. - Seneca Falls, New York Chrysler Electronic Ignition Bulletin No. 731 & 732 not only explains system functions but also how to test components. Also the simplest wiring diagram ever. Printed about 1974
 
I have looked at the various wiring diagrams and it all seems to be in order. Funny, that i disconnect the ignition start wire from the ballast resistor and it does fine. I bypassed the whole ballast resistor and wired the ignition + to the coil and it works fine. Something must be wrong at the resistor. Thanks.
 
The ignition start or 2 bypasses the ballast and providers 12v for starting. Ignition 1 or run goes threw
the ballast. Why does there need to be a ballast in the system? There are no longer points to protect from high voltage or are 12 volt coils by design ment to run on 9 volts.When testing the ignition control unit requires 12v from the coil cavity.
 
The ignition start or 2 bypasses the ballast and providers 12v for starting. Ignition 1 or run goes threw
the ballast. Why does there need to be a ballast in the system? There are no longer points to protect from high voltage or are 12 volt coils by design ment to run on 9 volts.When testing the ignition control unit requires 12v from the coil cavity.

So will running straight to the coil (bypassing the ballast) fry the coil or the ecu? That's what I've been told. An article in Mopar Muscle concluded that there was no reason for the resistor in an electronic ignition system. Then, why would Chrysler have it in all of their vehicles and conversion kits?
 
To answer your question about ballasts and such, there is a very good reason for running a 12V coil on 9V. When you crank the starter, it can draw 300-400 amps, which pull the battery voltage down, as low as 9 volts in a normal situation. Ignition coils are voltage multipliers, nothing else. To simplify my explaination, I'll use a multiplication of 20, which isn't really that far off on older systems. The coil multiplies 12 volts into 24,000 at the spark plug. When you crank the starter and the battery voltage drops to 9V, you're only getting 18,000V at the plug, of 75% of what you have when the engine is running. Actually it's more than that because if your charging system puts out 13.8V with the engine running, you're getting 27,600V at the plug. So when cranking the engine, you're only getting 65% of the voltage as you have with the engine running. So by designing the system so that you get the desired voltage at 9V, when you're cranking the engine and the ballast is bypassed, you get 9V to the primary side of the coil and the full spark. After the engine is running and the battery voltage is running through the ballast, you still have 9V and a full spark.

You can cause yourself some serious problem by bypassing the ballast on an electronic ignition system. Rather than use mechaincal points to close the circuit to the ground and collapse the magnetic field in the ignition coil (which causes a spark to be created), an TCI system (transistor controlled ignition) uses a large switching transistor to open or close the circuit to the ground. The Hall Effect sensor inside the distributor cap on our old Dodges creates a tiny electrical pulse each time the rotor passes by. This pulse is what turns the switching transistor on or off. The transistor body itself is conductive and must be insulated from any grounded surface. If not, the electricity is going to take the path of least resistance, through the ground.

Current flowing through any transistor creates heat and the more amperage going through it, the more heat produced. Transistors that flow large amounts of amperage can overheat and fail and are attached to a metal heat sink, which basically sucks the heat out of the transistor through conduction. To keep the transistor isolated from the ground, a thin piece of plastic is placed between the transistor and the heat sink.

Flowing higher than planned voltage through the transistor will cause it to run hotter than normal and the excess heat eventually breaks down the insulator, letting juice flow directly into the ground, bypassing the internal switching mechanism (very simplified, but I won't go into further details.) Instead of current "saturating" the ignition coil and then being sunted to the ground and forming a spark at the plug, current flows continually through the coil causing it to overheat.

I won't go into details of how I know, but take my word for it that not using a ballast resistor will fry the heat sink insulator in the ignition module and plastic cased ingition coils will get so hot that they split wide open and super heated goo runs out, then hardens into a solid blob. Needless to say, there ain't no sparking being done when that happens. In short, don't bypass the ballast UNLESS you're using a coil designed for points type ignitions that have 4-5 ohms of resistance at the primary winding. And if you do that, you'll lose the high voltage spark capability when starting.
 
To answer your question about ballasts and such, there is a very good reason for running a 12V coil on 9V. When you crank the starter, it can draw 300-400 amps, which pull the battery voltage down, as low as 9 volts in a normal situation. Ignition coils are voltage multipliers, nothing else. To simplify my explaination, I'll use a multiplication of 20, which isn't really that far off on older systems. The coil multiplies 12 volts into 24,000 at the spark plug. When you crank the starter and the battery voltage drops to 9V, you're only getting 18,000V at the plug, of 75% of what you have when the engine is running. Actually it's more than that because if your charging system puts out 13.8V with the engine running, you're getting 27,600V at the plug. So when cranking the engine, you're only getting 65% of the voltage as you have with the engine running. So by designing the system so that you get the desired voltage at 9V, when you're cranking the engine and the ballast is bypassed, you get 9V to the primary side of the coil and the full spark. After the engine is running and the battery voltage is running through the ballast, you still have 9V and a full spark.

You can cause yourself some serious problem by bypassing the ballast on an electronic ignition system. Rather than use mechaincal points to close the circuit to the ground and collapse the magnetic field in the ignition coil (which causes a spark to be created), an TCI system (transistor controlled ignition) uses a large switching transistor to open or close the circuit to the ground. The Hall Effect sensor inside the distributor cap on our old Dodges creates a tiny electrical pulse each time the rotor passes by. This pulse is what turns the switching transistor on or off. The transistor body itself is conductive and must be insulated from any grounded surface. If not, the electricity is going to take the path of least resistance, through the ground.

Current flowing through any transistor creates heat and the more amperage going through it, the more heat produced. Transistors that flow large amounts of amperage can overheat and fail and are attached to a metal heat sink, which basically sucks the heat out of the transistor through conduction. To keep the transistor isolated from the ground, a thin piece of plastic is placed between the transistor and the heat sink.

Flowing higher than planned voltage through the transistor will cause it to run hotter than normal and the excess heat eventually breaks down the insulator, letting juice flow directly into the ground, bypassing the internal switching mechanism (very simplified, but I won't go into further details.) Instead of current "saturating" the ignition coil and then being sunted to the ground and forming a spark at the plug, current flows continually through the coil causing it to overheat.

I won't go into details of how I know, but take my word for it that not using a ballast resistor will fry the heat sink insulator in the ignition module and plastic cased ingition coils will get so hot that they split wide open and super heated goo runs out, then hardens into a solid blob. Needless to say, there ain't no sparking being done when that happens. In short, don't bypass the ballast UNLESS you're using a coil designed for points type ignitions that have 4-5 ohms of resistance at the primary winding. And if you do that, you'll lose the high voltage spark capability when starting.

Wow, that's a lot of info. Thanks. I did not change the coil when converting the system to electronic. I simply added the distributor and ecu, and of course, the wiring harness from the ecu. This is not the MP kit or anything like that. I picked this up at O'reilly's. It is generic for a 1978 D100.

I do notice that the coil gets very hot after running. Why would the starter continue to crank with my original setup? Is the run + wire feeding back through the start + wire and causing it? I had the start + going from the wiring on the column to the ballast then to the coil +. The run + is on the other side of the ballast and also the + to the ecu. So simple, but obviously I'm not seeing it. BTW, I'm using the 4 wire configuration.
 
Do you still have the original engine harness in your 81? If you do there should be a 14ga. Red Wire that feed run voltage to the voltage regulator, trace the wire back from the regulator there should be a junction where the wire goes back to the main harness. There should be wire there that would go to emissions wiring if not used connect it to your ballast this is the ignition run wire also 14ga. Red this wire must run thru the ballast to the ECU for reason explained in previous thread. The other wire will feed from the starter switch start feed at the starter relay. Do not connect to the wire that feeds the starter.this wire will go to the opposite end of the ballast resistor with a second wire to the + side of coil. This is the wire that will bypass the ballast and supply battery voltage for starting. The - coil wire goes back to the ECU.if you have access to a 78-80 wiring diagram this will make more since. I would also like to thank our senior member for the input. Knew there had to be a logical reason.
 
I did use the same red wire that you refer to 7mopar. I removed all of the unused lean burn wires and picked up the ignition + at the point in the harness that all of the 14 ga red wired came together. I went back to the steering column harness to pick up the start + wire and used it. I think that it was a yellow wire of about 14 ga. I'm down to only 6 wires in the harness. I haven't messed with it this week but will work on it more tomorrow. Thanks guys.

BTW, I think that I must be a tooth off on the distributor because I have it at full clockwise adjustment for the engine to run right. I'm going to remove it and replace it at TDC and in the #1 position and see how that goes.
 
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