• Welcome to For Trucks Only !

    We are a community of American Brand Pickup Truck and SUV owners. Join now! Its Free!

Engine swap header question

Russ Knight

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2023
Messages
20
Reaction score
18
Location
North Florida
Hello everyone. Starting an an engine swap project and have a header question. Going to be swapping a 1971 340 with a six pack setup with a built 727 into a 2004 Dakota. The following information is irrelevant to the header question, but just wanted to let whoever may be interested know what my plans are in case anyone wants to offer guidance. Already purchased the motor mounts and transmission crossmember, will be using Trick Flow heads, stock rotating assembly, Howards Cams hydraulic roller cam (.525/.525 lift) and lifters with Harland Sharp roller rockers. Question is, does anyone know if a set of long tube headers will fit. I really don't want to use shorty headers but may be forced to. Thank you in advance and I'll be sharing pictures soon.
 
I don't know about long tube headers, they may be worth the trouble but, for the cost, power gain & hassle shortie headers are, they are NOT worth it. If you have to go the shorty header route, stick with the stock exhaust manifolds. I THINK stock Magnum V8 manifolds would fit a 340 no problem & I believe the ones from a 92-93 are best, with larger manifold to head pipe diameter, (3" I think) & flow damn near as good. Shorty headers are a hassle that aren't worth the minimal HP gain you get from them in my opinion. I'm working on a friends 03 Dakota R/T with shorty headers & they are a PITA, especially the passenger side!
 
If you can get the 340 to sit in the same location as a 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum sat in late 90's Dakotas that are the same body style as your 04, TTI is making long tube headers that fit those trucks. There's a thread about them on Moparts.com in the truck forum. You could just call TTI and see if you can get in on the group buy going on for the headers.
 
If you can get the 340 to sit in the same location as a 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum sat in late 90's Dakotas that are the same body style as your 04, TTI is making long tube headers that fit those trucks. There's a thread about them on Moparts.com in the truck forum. You could just call TTI and see if you can get in on the group buy going on for the headers.
Thank you!
 
If you are gonna assemble
a short-stroke, hi-rpm engine,
with a long-period cam; say with more than 60 degrees of overlap,
together with small-chamber alloy heads,
that engine is gonna be a little soft on the bottom........ maybe not for lack of Compression ratio, or cylinder pressure, but for lack of V/P.
Installed into a full-frame/heavy truck; that could mean a disappointing take-off.
The usual cure for that is a high-stall TC, and plenty of rear gear...... which then leads to an overdrive.

IMO
The better idea/not cure, for this situation, is long-tube headers with about two feet of straight pipe after the collectors, and a Crossover nearby. I would install 3" mandrel-bent pipes all the way to the back bumper, and 3-pass Dynomax turbo-style mufflers. You don't need 3" for your power level. You need it to provide expansion area so that your long-tubes can work properly, as tho they were open.
The actual cure for a lack of bottom end; would be more V/P, lots more;
and for a heavy truck, that's gunna require a bigger engine.....
ALSO;
I hope that you know;
that the pistons in a 71 340, with a stock rotating assembly, pop up above the decks, so you are gonna have to deal with that before you bolt on the closed-chamber Trickflows. If the Squish gets to be too big, the engine may/probably will, get into detonation at WOT. If too small, the pistons may hit either the heads or crash with the valves. My guess is that you have engineered that, but just wanted to make sure, since you said

in case anyone wants to offer guidance

Happy HotRodding
 
Last edited:
If you are gonna assemble
a short-stroke, hi-rpm engine,
with a long-period cam; say with more than 60 degrees of overlap,
together with small-chamber alloy heads,
that engine is gonna be a little soft on the bottom........ maybe not for lack of Compression ratio, or cylinder pressure, but for lack of V/P.
Installed into a full-frame/heavy truck; that could mean a disappointing take-off.
The usual cure for that is a high-stall TC, and plenty of rear gear...... which then leads to an overdrive.

IMO
The better idea/not cure, for this situation, is long-tube headers with about two feet of straight pipe after the collectors, and a Crossover nearby. I would install 3" mandrel-bent pipes all the way to the back bumper, and 3-pass Dynomax turbo-style mufflers. You don't need 3" for your power level. You need it to provide expansion area so that your long-tubes can work properly, as tho they were open.
The actual cure for a lack of bottom end; would be more V/P, lots more;
and for a heavy truck, that's gunna require a bigger engine.....
ALSO;
I hope that you know;
that the pistons in a 71 340, with a stock rotating assembly, pop up above the decks, so you are gonna have to deal with that before you bolt on the closed-chamber Trickflows. If the Squish gets to be too big, the engine may/probably will, get into detonation at WOT. If too small, the pistons may hit either the heads or crash with the valves. My guess is that you have engineered that, but just wanted to make sure, since you said



Happy HotRodding

Excellent information! Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm assuming you mean valve to piston clearance by V/P? I will be using flat top forged pistons with valve reliefs and will size the head gasket thickness to get the squish in the proper range. The engine will be bored just enough to clean the cylinders up, but I do not know how much at this time. According to my information, the short bed single cab Dakota weighs around 3900#. A 71 Challenger with a 340 / 727 weighs around 3500#, so we're talking about a 400 pound difference, not negligible, but not terrible. I've since discovered my Dakota has a 3.92 8 1/4 posi rear end, so gearing is low. The Howard's Cam I selected has a stated range between 1600 and 5600 RPM and according to my info the stall RPM of a 727 with a stock converter is between 1800-2000 RPM. My quandary on the headers is determining what will fit before I buy them. I'm having a professional engine builder do the assembly and machining on the engine and he will determine all the parameters / clearances you have brought forth.

On an interesting side note, I've been using Grok, X's AI to help gather information. Every now and then it makes a mistake, but generally has been super helpful. Here's a response to a question I ask it about squish on the 340:

"The Trick Flow PowerPort 190 heads’ 65cc chambers increase the compression ratio of a 1971 LA 340 from ~10.25:1 to ~10.57:1 to 10.65:1 with flat-top pistons, a 0.040-inch head gasket, and 0.005–0.010-inch deck clearance. Squish is ~0.045–0.050 inches, with 0.045 inches being ideal for performance. Use 91-93 octane and verify valve-to-piston clearance with your 0.525-inch lift cam. A 0.028-inch gasket can tighten squish to ~0.033–0.038 inches, improving efficiency. Trick Flow remains the best street/strip choice for cost and torque."

Pretty cool.

Thank you again, and I am always open to correction and direction.

Russ
 
Part-1
well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but;
the 71 340 never had an Scr of 10.25 to 10.57.
It was rated at 10.5 but that was a lie just like it's power-rating of 275 as a 4bbl was a lie.
Do the math;
The pop-up was NOT .045., maybe 015 for -3cc
The gaskets were .020, maybe 4.5cc
the open chambers were in the window of 70>72cc
and the 4eyebrows per piston, I'm guessig were ~8cc.
Thus the total chamber volume was about 81.5cc
the swept was 696.4, so
the Scr was....... 9.55, at best! with 70cc heads.
The math does not lie.


65cc chambers and 054 gaskets will change the total chamber volume from 81.5 to 78.6, for a new Scr of 9.86.
But, listen; the engine could NOT care less about it's Scr.
What it cares about are Squish(commonly called Quench) and cylinder pressure, We use Dcr and fuel octane, to guide us to the required Scr to achieve the safe working pressure.
In your case, with the Scr already established by the chosen parts, now we have to work the number backwards to arrive at an acceptable pressure. But doing that, requires knowing the camshaft timing events, and the installed position; which you did not supply.
So if you are building this for the street; IMO, you're in a bit of a pickle.
Part-2
Your Dakota estimated weight of 3900, is, IMO very conservative. But say you get it down to that weight; this is ~15% heavier than the heaviest A-body, and ~26% heavier than the 67>69 A's, plus Dusters, Demons, and 2-dr Scamps .
To compete with their weight advantage, you would need Big-Block power, which the 340 can do using rpm. But at a common stall speed, the only way to compete is with the same 26% more overall gearing. or by up-stalling to get the same delivered ftlbs.
Part-3
Next you have the Tire size differential.
The original 340 A's had E70-15s on them, at about 24.5 inches tall.
Your Dakota came with 235/75-15s at a height of about 28.9 inches.
This is a difference of 17.9%. Which means, you're gonna need that much more gearing to compare, so your 2.92s compare to 2.48s in an A-body. Dog city.
To compare to 3.55s you would need 4.19s
Part-4
Stall.
Ima thinking your cam is about a 262 to probably a 268. and the Ica will come in at around 64*. If I'm right, the P/V, which is a performance ratio of Pressure and cylinder Volume, is gonna come in around 126 with a pressure of around 157psi, at 500ft elevation.
Are you sitting down?
At low rpm, with the equivalent of 4.19 gears, under say 3500rpm, the V/P is estimating that your Hot-Rod 340 will feel about as powerful as a 5.2 Magnum, assuming they both power thru the same Convertor. Therefore, if you want more take off performance, yur gonna have swap out your low stall TC...... or go even deeper in the rear gears.
Part-5
All these other changes are costing you time and money. Hi-stall convertors are not cheep. New gears installed are not cheap. Wheels and tires are not cheap.
But to me, the biggest travesty is running alloy heads at a paltry 9.5 Scr.
The combination of ALLOY heads and a Tight-squish in my 360LA, have easily run at, up to 195psi, still burning 87E10, since 1999.
By you not going there, you are leaving a lot of power under the table.
If you did that you could get away with a lot less gearing and stall.
Part-6
But if I had a 340, in a Dakota, I would just run an A518 4-speed auto...... with mega gears in the back. and I would run a cam of no more than about a 223/110 @050 cam, (or say a 228/108 cam) so I could gear it at 65=no more than 2400, so I can cruise the beast. In this case, I might consider, just for kicks, a small Whiplash or Thumpr. I said "might", lol.
 
Last edited:
Trick Flow remains the best street/strip choice for cost and torque."
BTW
alloy heads by themselves, do not make torque.
By themselves, at the same build, just swapping heads, they will lose torque.
The loss is the equivalent, of an easy full point of compression from idle to about 3500 in your case, to a half a point at peak power.
Don't give them more credit than is due them.

When they do make more torque, it is because the builder knew that, and has increased the Dcr accordingly, and or modified the ports to get more air in, at a lower rpm. Give the credit to the builder and the porter.
You cannot measure this on a calculator. You have to trust the builder. You won't know until the test-drive. But by far, the biggest difference will be found by taking 157psi engine to 195 psi. It's night and day.
 
BTW
alloy heads by themselves, do not make torque.
By themselves, at the same build, just swapping heads, they will lose torque.
The loss is the equivalent, of an easy full point of compression from idle to about 3500 in your case, to a half a point at peak power.
Don't give them more credit than is due them.

When they do make more torque, it is because the builder knew that, and has increased the Dcr accordingly, and or modified the ports to get more air in, at a lower rpm. Give the credit to the builder and the porter.
You cannot measure this on a calculator. You have to trust the builder. You won't know until the test-drive. But by far, the biggest difference will be found by taking 157psi engine to 195 psi. It's night and day.
I've decided to go the stroker route. 416ci and will let the builder determine the appropriate cam and heads. Also going to use the transmission you suggested. Thank you for your help, it has been invaluable. Are you a builder?
 
Amen brother, the stroker is what you need, you are gonna have so much fun!!

I am not a car engine builder besides maybe a dozen in my lifetime.
I have built hundreds of motorcycle/snow-mobile/ATV engines. maybe hundred of hundreds. I am 72, and have been wrenching for most of my life altho NOT in the racing world.... much.
 
Amen brother, the stroker is what you need, you are gonna have so much fun!!

I am not a car engine builder besides maybe a dozen in my lifetime.
I have built hundreds of motorcycle/snow-mobile/ATV engines. maybe hundred of hundreds. I am 72, and have been wrenching for most of my life altho NOT in the racing world.... much.
Thank you again. Your input completely changed the direction of my project.
 
Yeah sorry about that, lol, but tell me
If I had told you in my first post to forget all that and just get a stroker, be truthful, what would you have told me?
See, this is how friends help friends.
 
Yeah sorry about that, lol, but tell me
If I had told you in my first post to forget all that and just get a stroker, be truthful, what would you have told me?
See, this is how friends help friends.
Of course not. I'm relatively new here and don't know you or anything about you. Your obvious knowledge and fact based information is what changed my mind, and it is greatly appreciated. Just like I said in a previous post, I'm open to direction and correction. I don't know what I don't know, but I do know you know more than I do about what you posted in parts 1-5 above. 🤣
 
lol, I like you Russ, I hope it all works out for you. Call anytime.
I'm gonna delete this thread from my archives in a day or two, to make room for others. But it will stay with you, until you delete it.
 
Thank you Brother for the blessing.
and let me send it right back at you, with a stowaway;
read Revelation chapters one thru 3, and chapter 12, then Matthew 24:40 with, Luke 17:34.
Pray for understanding, to be able to put it all together.
the result may be, IMO, the most important words in the Bible for the Believers, during the beginning of these EndTimes.
Yes indeed, may God give you understanding.
 
Back
Top